Chapters 9-14: Lessons with Dumbledore

by **lianne** 2011-06-22, 00:38

I shall add to this as we go along.
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Picking up where DADAprofAE left off in the thread prior to this; we're back at Hogwarts with Harry and the gang:

At breakfast, Prof. McGonagall surprised Neville when she was quick to praise him. What did you think of her outburst, "It's high time your grandmother learned to be proud of the grandson she's got, rather than the one she thinks she ought to have - particularly after what happened at the Ministry."

There is no love lost between Harry and Severus Snape, that's for sure! If anything, their animosity towards each other seemed to have increased tenfold as Harry decided not to take things lying down when it comes to Prof. Snape. Who did you think was out of line in their confrontation? Snape or Harry?

Harry brewed the perfect potion using the book of the mysterious Half-Blood Prince and subsequently won the Felix Felicis. Did you think what he did was cheating?

Chapters 9-14: Lessons with Dumbledore 909172

by doc_ardyey 2011-06-22, 01:31

Harry brewed the perfect potion using the book of the mysterious Half-Blood Prince and subsequently won the Felix Felicis. Did you think what he did was cheating?

I really won't say it's cheating as he didn't intend to have that book in his possession. It was like a gift in disguise. Even I would admit that having such book would make me think and follow the notes. Also, since it's like a laboratory session where you have your manuals to use, then I can clearly say it's not cheating. It will be cheating per se if he uses it on OWLs or NEWTs right?

by tanglewood14 2011-06-22, 11:53

lianne wrote:I shall add to this as we go along.
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At breakfast, Prof. McGonagall surprised Neville when she was quick to praise him. What did you think of her outburst, "It's high time your grandmother learned to be proud of the grandson she's got, rather than the one she thinks she ought to have - particularly after what happened at the Ministry."

Harry brewed the perfect potion using the book of the mysterious Half-Blood Prince and subsequently won the Felix Felicis. Did you think what he did was cheating?

I thought it was (colloquially speaking) cool for Prof. McGonagall to praise Neville that way.

Did I think Harry was cheating? Yes, but he was good at it!He was sly enough to use the Half-Blood Prince's notes and "corrections" on the potion making. He's the only one with the information, the others didn't, which would be unfair and would be considered as a form of cheating. However, if I were in Harry's place, then, yes, I probably would've tried the HBP's version of the potion.

by **lianne** 2011-06-22, 23:21

tanglewood14 wrote:
Did I think Harry was cheating? Yes, but he was good at it!He was sly enough to use the Half-Blood Prince's notes and "corrections" on the potion making. He's the only one with the information, the others didn't, which would be unfair and would be considered as a form of cheating. However, if I were in Harry's place, then, yes, I probably would've tried the HBP's version of the potion.

Ooooooo! But the instructions Harry followed weren't official (part of the course). He might be faulted for, well, not following instructions Razz

but is it cheating if he was privy to info that wasn't official in the first place? For example, if say a person is allowed to bring their books/notes (yes, this happens in my old school LOL) to an exam, is it cheating if said person just happened to have better 'notes'?

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Now in Chapter 10, we find Harry in his first lesson with Professor Dumbledore.

What did you expect? Was the lesson what you had in mind?

Did the story of the Gaunts change your perspective of Tom Riddle, the boy who eventually became Lord Voldemort?

Do you consider Merope a victim?

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More as we go along.

Chapters 9-14: Lessons with Dumbledore 909172

by **geewitch** 2011-06-23, 08:57

I personally don't believe it was cheating. Yes, he did have an advantage but then again, tough luck to those who don't.

When I was at uni and chemistry lab class required us to do experiments, it was always open notes and most of the time, the stuff you needed to complete your experiments properly were discussed in the lecture part of the course. I took pride in taking great notes and remembered little hints here and there that would help me along during lab time.

Granted that the notes weren't Harry's, the fact that it was a textbook that anyone could have easily picked up and used, I think it's fair game.

lianne wrote:
tanglewood14 wrote:
Did I think Harry was cheating? Yes, but he was good at it!He was sly enough to use the Half-Blood Prince's notes and "corrections" on the potion making. He's the only one with the information, the others didn't, which would be unfair and would be considered as a form of cheating. However, if I were in Harry's place, then, yes, I probably would've tried the HBP's version of the potion.

Ooooooo! But the instructions Harry followed weren't official (part of the course). He might be faulted for, well, not following instructions but is it cheating if he was privy to info that wasn't official in the first place? For example, if say a person is allowed to bring their books/notes (yes, this happens in my old school LOL) to an exam, is it cheating if said person just happened to have better 'notes'?

by **DADAProfAE** 2011-06-23, 14:29

I think it was only Hermione who considered it cheating, hahahaha!

As a teacher myself, I wouldn't even call it cheating. Harry didn't follow the textbook procedure, the official instructions, yes, but he went by what his gut told him to do and got better results! It's simply like using a different book altogether. Or having a supplementary resource material which turned out to be better because clearly, the officially sanctioned textbook could use some revisions.

Madam Lianne, remember what we discussed last weekend at Fazoli during dinner? When you shared that story about your grandma and math? When your teacher marked your answer wrong simply because of a different procedure, but then you had the same correct answer? I'm kind of reminded of that right now, with Harry's revised textbook procedure (courtesy of the Half-Blood Prince) and the official textbook procedure.

No harm, no foul I guess.

And oh, Hermione (if you can read this, darling), how different is it had it been you who say, found a different Potions book at the library telling the reader to follow a different set of instructions about a potion? Would that be called cheating? I don't think so. If it educates the reader, then all's well I say Smile

by AmandaBlue 2011-06-23, 18:00

lianne wrote:
Harry brewed the perfect potion using the book of the mysterious Half-Blood Prince and subsequently won the Felix Felicis. Did you think what he did was cheating?

DADAProfAE wrote:I think it was only Hermione who considered it cheating, hahahaha!

Yes, I agree. LOL. I agree with Prof. G as well, it was fair game. Anyone could have used it.

I didn't think Harry was cheating. It's like when your Prof tells you that for the class, you would use this certain book title as reference, but you go ahead and read other books too as supplement.

Is it cheating when you had no intentions of doing so? I mean, I think he had no intentions of cheating, actually. He didn't know that the notes in the book would bring better results than the standard instuctions, he simply went with his insticts, and tried the Half-Blood Prince's notes.

Personally, I've done this. I borrowed the notes of a friend who had taken the class during the previous semester Wink

by **geewitch** 2011-06-23, 18:40

And for being resourceful, here's 5 pts to you! Smile

AmandaBlue wrote:

Personally, I've done this. I borrowed the notes of a friend who had taken the class during the previous semester

by **lianne** 2011-06-23, 20:18

DADAProfAE wrote:I think it was only Hermione who considered it cheating, hahahaha!

Aha! But did she really? Did Hermione really think it was cheating?
Because if you'll remember, she changed tact after that first day.
She became more insistent that the book was connected to the dark arts somehow, rather than just a tool for cheating. I got the impression that she was just miffed that Harry did better than her (in potions) but deep inside she knew it wasn't cheating. I don't know, what do you guys think? Very Happy

But yeah DADAf. I remembered our talk last Sunday. LOL

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Our next chapter (11 - Hermione's Helping Hand) actually gives us more insight on Hermione's character.

What did you think of the confundus charm she placed on Cormac McLaggen which guaranteed Ron the spot in the Gryffindor quidditch team? Now, was THAT cheating? Did it change your views of Hermione?

Do you think Harry was really that oblivious to his own appeal? He was a 16-year old boy/man after all. He must have had some idea! My Godric! Hermione had to point out to him how fanciable he was. LOL

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More as we go along.

Chapters 9-14: Lessons with Dumbledore 909172

by tanglewood14 2011-06-23, 20:39

lianne wrote:
tanglewood14 wrote:
Did I think Harry was cheating? Yes, but he was good at it!He was sly enough to use the Half-Blood Prince's notes and "corrections" on the potion making. He's the only one with the information, the others didn't, which would be unfair and would be considered as a form of cheating. However, if I were in Harry's place, then, yes, I probably would've tried the HBP's version of the potion.

[color=green]Ooooooo! But the instructions Harry followed weren't official (part of the course). He might be faulted for, well, not following instructions but is it cheating if he was privy to info that wasn't official in the first place? For example, if say a person is allowed to bring their books/notes (yes, this happens in my old school LOL) to an exam, is it cheating if said person just happened to have better 'notes'?

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I was actually enlightened by my sister about this last night. And now I actually change my mind. Come to think of it, Harry really wasn't cheating. He had no intention of cheating.

I retract my former answer. tongue

by **DADAProfAE** 2011-06-23, 20:58

lianne wrote:Aha! But did she really? Did Hermione really think it was cheating?
Because if you'll remember, she changed tact after that first day.
She became more insistent that the book was connected to the dark arts somehow, rather than just a tool for cheating. I got the impression that she was just miffed that Harry did better than her (in potions) but deep inside she knew it wasn't cheating. I don't know, what do you guys think?

But yeah DADAf. I remembered our talk last Sunday. LOL

I think she did, yeah, hahaha. She only changed tactics because she thought (and this is just me giving a quick appraisal of Hermy) Harry wouldn't yield and give up the book on the grounds of cheating. Why? Perhaps she thinks Harry's (supported by the ever loyal, though somewhat ethically-questionable Ron) threshold for cheating is high, but very low when it comes to dabbling with the Dark Arts. I've always regarded Hermione as a little Minerva, somebody with a very strong moral compass and she wouldn't let Harry violate that sense of righteousness.

While it's true that she also got miffed with Harry being better at her in Potions, I don't think she's the kind who'd easily accommodate a new definition of cheating in her personal dictionary.

Then again, there was that confundus charm where she clearly accommodated her own view of what is and what isn't cheating (come on Hermione. your feelings are so obvious! Very Happy

). What's the corollary to the 4 Rules of Constant Vigilance? Hermione is always right. . . unless she becomes emotional about something Very Happy

by **lianne** 2011-06-24, 19:56

DADAProfAE wrote:I think she did, yeah, hahaha. She only changed tactics because she thought (and this is just me giving a quick appraisal of Hermy) Harry wouldn't yield and give up the book on the grounds of cheating. Why? Perhaps she thinks Harry's (supported by the ever loyal, though somewhat ethically-questionable Ron) threshold for cheating is high, but very low when it comes to dabbling with the Dark Arts. I've always regarded Hermione as a little Minerva, somebody with a very strong moral compass and she wouldn't let Harry violate that sense of righteousness.

Interesting. Veeery interesting. Exclamation

You see, in the next chapter, we find that Harry gets more absorbed in the Half-Blood Prince's book. Despite some initial misgivings, he tried out a spell written in the book. It turned out to be a levitation spell of sorts. Something that had Hermione convinced that whoever the 'Prince' was, he/she was dangerous and possibly dabbled in the Dark Arts.

But let's put that aside for a sec as we follow the trio to Hogsmeade where A LOT of things happened:

I believe Harry's confrontation with Mundungus Fletcher was the first time since the end of OotP that he'd shown a great deal of emotion when it came to a topic involving Sirius. What did you think of Harry's rage (he was nearly chocking Mundungus to death)? Do you think he overreacted? Would you have flown of the handle like that given the same situation?

What were your theories on Katie Bell getting imperiused and the cursed necklace in her possession? Did you agree with Harry that Draco did it?

by Kay 2011-06-25, 19:15

lianne wrote:
She became more insistent that the book was connected to the dark arts somehow, rather than just a tool for cheating. I got the impression that she was just miffed that Harry did better than her (in potions) but deep inside she knew it wasn't cheating. I don't know, what do you guys think?

True, Hermione was never really used to Harry performing better than her in potions, especially because Harry had never excelled when Snape was their professor. Also, for someone like Hermione, it must have been very difficult to accept that her book had been bested by an unknown man's notes. Maybe that's why she initially referred to it as "cheating". I agree with DADAf's thoughts on why she changed her tactics later on.

lianne wrote:
Now in Chapter 10, we find Harry in his first lesson with Professor Dumbledore.

What did you expect? Was the lesson what you had in mind?

Did the story of the Gaunts change your perspective of Tom Riddle, the boy who eventually became Lord Voldemort?

Do you consider Merope a victim?

I thought that the lessons would be something like Occlumency, something that involves learning advanced magic and all that. But when I reached the story of the Gaunts, it occurred to me that Lord Voldemort must have gone through something really terrible for him to turn out the darkest wizard of his age and it was a brilliant idea to dig up his past and perhaps learn how to truly defeat him.

As for Merope, I figured she was Harry's equivalent in the wizarding world. While Harry suffered from the Dursley's just because he was born a wizard, Merope also had to endure being condescended by her own father. Of course they're both victims, for they were had to face hardships simply because of their birth.

by **geewitch** 2011-06-25, 21:19

Hey, that's not cheating if it's all in the name of love. No, seriously. Wink

DADAProfAE wrote:
Then again, there was that confundus charm where she clearly accommodated her own view of what is and what isn't cheating (come on Hermione. your feelings are so obvious! ). What's the corollary to the 4 Rules of Constant Vigilance? Hermione is always right. . . unless she becomes emotional about something

by tanglewood14 2011-06-26, 14:01

I think that Hermione was only concerned with the HBP Potions book having some connection to the Dark Arts because she doesn't want a repeat of what happened to Ginny and the Tom Riddle diary. She's trying to avoid having another friend "possessed" by a book that they have no idea who originally owned it.

by **lianne** 2011-06-27, 02:20

Kay wrote:I thought that the lessons would be something like Occlumency, something that involves learning advanced magic and all that. But when I reached the story of the Gaunts, it occurred to me that Lord Voldemort must have gone through something really terrible for him to turn out the darkest wizard of his age and it was a brilliant idea to dig up his past and perhaps learn how to truly defeat him.

And indeed, that's what Harry and Dumbledore did in Chapter 13. They dug deeper into Voldemort's past. I just have one or two questions on this subject:

Did you feel any tinge of pity for the boy, Tom Riddle, after learning about his past? Why or why not?

by **geewitch** 2011-06-28, 10:59

I felt a lot of pity for Tom Riddle, actually. No child should ever have had to go through what he did. I still feel that people are inherently good and that with good guidance and patience, they will turn out well, no matter the circumstances.

It's not to say that his actions later on as Lord Voldemort has been justified by his past but still, you gotta feel for someone who didn't grow up in a happy environment like must of us - hopefully - have.

by tanglewood14 2011-06-28, 19:41

I felt a little pity for Tom because there was nobody to serve as a role model for him and to guide him with what is right or wrong. Having a look of his past made me understand Tom a little more, but it doesn't make me sympathetic enough to think that his past justifies his evil deeds as Lord Voldemort.

Freud said that "The child is father to man", and unfortunately for Tom Riddle, his childhood was about seclusion and not feeling accepted.

by **lianne** 2011-07-06, 14:37

DADAProfAE wrote:Then again, there was that confundus charm where she clearly accommodated her own view of what is and what isn't cheating (come on Hermione. your feelings are so obvious! ). What's the corollary to the 4 Rules of Constant Vigilance? Hermione is always right. . . unless she becomes emotional about something

The last chapter of this set is a relatively light read. It's almost all about matters of the heart. Very Happy

There's Ron and Hermione finally showing more obvious signs of *ehem* partiality towards each other. Even Harry noticed!

Speaking of Harry, he also starts owning up to his feelings towards Ginny in this chapter. Err...at least in his mind. Razz

But I'm not going to talk about that.

I want to know your reactions to Harry's trick with the Felix Felicis. We know Ron's been an inconsistently good quidditch player. Was Harry justified in what he did? What are your thoughts on Hermione calling out Harry for what he did (thinking he really gave Ron FF)? Did you agree with her that Harry's 'use' of FF was different from how she 'manipulated' the tryouts?

Chapters 9-14: Lessons with Dumbledore 909172

by loonyphy 2011-09-07, 15:23

lianne wrote:
I want to know your reactions to Harry's trick with the Felix Felicis. We know Ron's been an inconsistently good quidditch player. Was Harry justified in what he did? What are your thoughts on Hermione calling out Harry for what he did (thinking he really gave Ron FF)? Did you agree with her that Harry's 'use' of FF was different from how she 'manipulated' the tryouts?

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It (the trick) was fine with me. After all, we found out that Harry didn't really use the Felix Felicis. Technically, there's no harm done. When it comes to Hermione's reaction, as expected, she won't tolerate it. She hates cheating in any form. (w/the exemption of course of what she did to Ron's try outs) I would be surprised if she won't make any protest at all. I do agree however, that Harry's trick was exactly different from how Hermione manipulated the try outs. First and foremost, Harry only pretended to put the FF to Ron's drink. Again, no harm done. He's aim was just boost Ron's confidence so he could pay well. With Hermione's action, she DID USE A SPELL/CHARM so that Cormac would really miss the last quaffle, when in fact, Cormac could have aced it. There's a big difference on the two. Harry really didn't do anything (just a trick), while in Hermione's case, she really did manipulate the try outs so Ron would get in.

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